Concerned Catholics and Mormonism - Revisited.
Mitt Romney.
Yesterday I posted a piece concerning Mitt Romney’s Mormonism, asking why this should make any difference as regards his suitability for the White House. I took it down after I received an informative email from a concerned Catholic, who happens to be a well educated, Catholic professional - not a conspiracy theorist by any means - who once lived under “Mormon rule” in Utah. (I’m known to take posts down all the time, for a variety of reasons. For a time, I used to do it deliberately, just to drive my previous employer nuts - one day the post would be there, the next day it was gone - only to return a week later. It was fun. But I digress.)
Mormonism: A cult?
I do believe many Catholics and Evangelical protestants already know that the Mormon religion is a cult - maybe even sharing a few similarities with Scientology. For instance, my friend wrote; “Men can become gods, and God started off as some guy living on another planet. You may not get a straight answer from a Mormon about this.” Doesn’t Scientology claim that we are all from another planet as well? (Of course, everyone knows Tom Cruise is a god - LOL!)
Proselytizing on bikes.
Indeed, it is hard to get a straight answer from Mormons. Once, shortly after my conversion in 1972, two young Mormon evangelists came to my apartment. In those days I was a rare commodity in the local Church; that is, very few young people were interested in the the Catholic Church and Jesus. I was friendless. So when two young guys came to my door to talk about Jesus, I was thrilled to be able to talk to them about the Eucharist, the Trinity, etc. When they seemed to agree - but with reservations, I tried to question them about the tenets of Mormonism, yet they were evasive and kept trying to present the Christian perspective - though skewed.
Gradually I realized what the Church of Jesus Christ Later-day Saints was about - hence, I urged them to leave it immediately for their own salvation. I then took out my Bible to cite passages defending the Catholic Church, and read passages from the letter of St. Peter about the last days. etc.. They were totally freaked out and left me as soon as they could. (You know how intense we are soon after our conversion.) I was sad when they left, feeling like the blind hermit when Frankenstein had left him - I was all alone again.
Flip-flops - they aren’t just footwear!
Having said that, as time went on, (and we’ve had Presidents who say they are Christian, although a few haven’t acted like it - Hi, Bill!) I began to believe a candidate’s religion doesn’t really matter - because they tend to compartmentalize, twist it, or not practice it anyway. In Romney’s case, he’s pro-life now - a flip-flop from being pro-choice at one time. Just so, George Bush is pro-life - to a point. But politicians flip-flop for the sound-bites and photo-ops all the time. Cynic that I have become, I think many politicians simply use the God thing and pro-life thing to get elected - depending from which side the money comes from. (Again, I digress!)
Pretending to be Christian.
Most Mormon’s probably really do not pretend to be Christian - they really think they are - but they aren’t the garden variety type of Christian most WASP’s know and love. They are a hybrid of false teachings and prophets, believing in an ongoing revelation. True Christians know that Divine Revelation stopped with the Apostles, the fullness of Truth has been completely revealed - there can be no new doctrine. Read the Catholic Church’s stance on Mormon Baptism- it will clear up any question a Catholic may have regarding the Later-day Saints.
No real Baptism - no real Christianity.
Which means Mormonism is closer to a cult, not so much a sect, but a cult that has worked itself up to a “Christian denomination” - yet with some marked differences. “Difference of views: Mormons hold that there is no real Trinity, no original sin, that Christ did not institute baptism.” - The document on Mormon Baptism. Other oddities they accept include : Jesus and Lucifer were brothers. The Bible is corrupted and subject to the Book of Mormon and the interpretation of the “prophet” Joseph Smith and the Elders. And as I mentioned earlier, public revelation is ongoing and therefore, flip-flops on the polygamy issue can certainly reoccur. (Remember Romney’s pro-choice/pro-choice flipping around? That was convenient, huh?) If current marriage legislation is changed in the United States, regarding gay marriage, it’s not such a leap to believe polygamy can make a comeback.
Fraternal email correction - it’s a good thing!
In the email, my friend presented some valid considerations as to why the American people should be concerned about a Mormon President - not just Catholics, but all citizens:
“My friend, I can tell you have never lived in Utah or southern Idaho. Please believe me when I tell you we do notwant Mormons in the White House. I say “Mormons” because it would not stop with Mitt Romney, either during or after his administration. The problem is not individual Mormons but the Mormon “church,” what it’s all about and how it operates. Mormonism is a cult (nowhere is this more obvious than at Temple Square in Salt Lake City, whose most striking feature is that it is utterly devoid of crosses or any other Christian symbols — no doubt a Providential warning) and a religion of darkness. It would be a disaster if Mormonism gained the prestige that it would acquire if a Mormon became president.
The problem is not merely what Mormons believe (about which, by the way, they are trained not to be entirely candid) but how they operate. They basically view the world as being made up of two kinds of people: Mormons and potential Mormons. They are out to convert as many people as they possibly can, and they are pretty aggressive. They also treat non-Mormons like second-class citizens, particularly when said non-Mormons do not appear readily amenable to proselytizing.” - From an email.
Aside from the fact my friend once lived in Utah and experienced the “Mormon state” first hand - one only has to read the Book of Mormon, or the more concise and very interesting Thirteen Articles of Faith to recognize something is off with their religion - from a traditional Christian perspective. Again, adherents may not even be fully aware of the distortion from traditional Christianity, simply because they do not know the difference - as my friend charitably explained.
Game Show host good looks and anchor-man delivery.
Mitt Romney has it going on in the image department; media refers to his Hollywood good looks - which is really more Game Show host savvy and good looks in my estimation. He speaks well and is a charmer - he’d be great on the nightly news. He says the right things to the right Republicans as well. In a secularized, so-called “Christian country” a well-groomed, polished, debonair gentleman - with a lot of money, speaking against gay marriage and abortion is going to get a lot of attention from neoconservatives.
Hopefully we will all study the candidates thoroughly before we cast our vote in the next presidential election. Their public record and personal beliefs really do matter.
(Thanks to my friend for the informative email, offering an interesting perspective on this issue.)
August 14th, 2007 at 1:34 pm
Terry, you’ve made a case for Mormonism not being a Christian religion, but it’s still not clear to me why Catholics should be concerned about voting for Mitt Romney as President. Of course I’d love to see a presidential field full of practicing Catholics, but this just isn’t the case.
“No real Baptism - no real Christianity. Which means Mormonism is a cult, not so much a sect, but a cult.” Does this necessarily follow? I would agree that Mormons are strange, mislead, deceived, and definitely NOT Christian (regardless of what they say), but a cult? Guess I’d have to think that one through.
The idea that faith of the elected President has the ability to suppress other faiths just doesn’t seem to have historically held true. After all, look at the progress secular humanism has made under 218 years of Christian presidency.
“It would be a disaster if Mormonism gained the prestige that it would acquire if a Mormon became president.”
Eisenhower was raised a Jehovah’s Whiteness, Hoover and Nixon were Quakers, and Adams, Fillmore, and Taft were Unitarians. If there was any bump in the “prestige” of the Quaker community I’m just not seeing it.
Now I’ve never lived in Utah, and I’m honestly still undecided over the voting-for-a-Mormon thing, but I do get a little nervy when terms like “cult”, “Providential warning”, and “religion of darkness” start getting thrown around.
Guess I’m still undecided.
August 14th, 2007 at 2:16 pm
Your friend who suffered under “Mormon rule” in Utah reminds me of the story of the man who need to move to a new town and was checking out a neighborhood. He saw an old native rocking on his porch and asked what the neighbors were like. “First tell me what your old neighbors were like.” “Oh, they were just wonderful!” “Well, I’m sure you’ll find that the people in this neighborhood are wonderful, too.”
Next day another person came by and asked the same question of the native, and got the same question in return. “Oh, they were the worst neighbors you could ever imagine.” “Too bad,” was the reply. “I’m afraid you’ll find the same kind of people here.”
August 14th, 2007 at 3:59 pm
As a concerned Catholic, I’m mostly concerned that there’s never been a true Catholic in the White House.. (one does not assure John Q. Public that one’s religion will not interfere with decisions, and then still call oneself Catholic. Apostasy is apostasy.) Why not a Mormon in the oval office? We have Muslims holding other offices, who’ve declined to swear on a Bible, not even Jefferson’s. Is this land a melting pot, still, or is it ultimately (because of its many opportunities and blessings just utterly thrown to greedy machines) the place of desolation that the abomination is going to stand in? Good heavens, we’ve set the seedbed for that in so many ways.
Mary, Patroness of the Americas, plead for us who have recourse to thee. We are children still brattily unready for meat.
August 14th, 2007 at 5:05 pm
Thank you - you have all made excellent points to balance this issue out.
Terry
August 14th, 2007 at 5:13 pm
As a genealogist, I have a funny feeling when I run across records indicating that my great grandparents and some ancestors who were life-long Catholics have been “baptized” into the Mormon church.
Early Mormons wanted to provide for their ancestors when they created their religion out of thin air in the 1830s or so.
In order that parents and other ancestors could achieve what rewards the LDS church promises, they developed a practice called “sealing”, I believe, where if the official records could be found, ancestors could be baptized into the Mormon church, posthumously.
And they started keeping copies of all those records to aid other Mormons. Non-Mormons have access to those microfilm records and use them to determine their own family histories for non-Mormon reasons.
The Mormon Family History Libraries are located in most larger cities and they are very pleasant in letting you use their records. Their fees are extremely low for renting microfilm. They don’t try to convert you when you are doing research.
August 14th, 2007 at 5:21 pm
We’ve got lots of Mormons here in the northern parts of California. I’ve always been impressed with them. For the most part they seem to be an honest, hard working, straight-shooting bunch when compared to their neighbors - even, sad to say, their Catholic neighbors.
They were the only outspoken pro-life kids in high school, for example. And they were genuinely kind to the misfits and unpopular kids.
I can also tell you that they make the best employees.
I once admitted to a priest that if I didn’t know that the Catholic Church is the one true Church I’d probably end up Mormon.
August 14th, 2007 at 5:22 pm
That said, I don’t want a Mormon in the White House if we can help it. But I’d take a good Mormon over a bad Catholic.
August 14th, 2007 at 7:18 pm
Their theology is pretty “out there”. But the Mormons I have encountered are good people who walk the walk. Are they Christians? It’s not my job to figure that out. That’s for God to say. At any rate, I pray for them to come to know the fullness of truth.
And yes, the discussion is reminscent of anti-Catholic propaganda of years gone by. There are reasons why I won’t be voting for Mitt Romney, but his being a Mormon isn’t one of them.
August 14th, 2007 at 8:54 pm
Hi Terry,
This is me, the real “justme”, at least the one you know about.
I don’t know who is the just me that posted comment No.3, but is certainly not ME.
She/he has a blog, too…. I’m going to have to change identities now! Any suggestions?
The real Just me
August 14th, 2007 at 9:34 pm
Just me, 1st and original - I’m glad you told me - I thought you were getting all apocalyptic on me.
August 15th, 2007 at 5:40 am
The Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) is often accused of not believing in Christ and, therefore, not being a Christian religion This article helps to clarify such misconceptions by examining early Christianity’s comprehension of baptism, the Godhead, the deity of Jesus Christ and His Atonement.
• Baptism: .
Early Christian churches, practiced baptism of youth (not infants) by immersion by the father of the family. The local congregation had a lay ministry. An early Christian Church has been re-constructed at the Israel Museum, and the above can be verified. http://www.imj.org.il/eng/exhibitions/2000/christianity/anci entchurch/structure/index.html
The Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) continues baptism and a lay ministry as taught by Jesus’ Apostles. Early Christians were persecuted for keeping their practices sacred, and prohibiting non-Christians from witnessing them.
• The Trinity: .
A literal reading of the New Testament points to God and Jesus Christ , His Son , being separate , divine beings , united in purpose. . To whom was Jesus praying in Gethsemane, and Who was speaking to Him and his apostles on the Mount of Transfiguration?
The Nicene Creed”s definition of the Trinity was influenced by scribes translating the Greek manuscripts into Latin. The scribes embellished on a passage explaining the Trinity , which is the Catholic and Protestant belief that God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The oldest versions of the epistle of 1 John, read: “There are three that bear witness: the Spirit, the water and the blood and these three are one.”
Scribes later added “the Father, the Word and the Spirit,” and it remained in the epistle when it was translated into English for the King James Version, according to Dr. Bart Ehrman, Chairman of the Religion Department at UNC- Chapel Hill. He no longer believes in the Nicene Trinity. .
Scholars agree that Early Christians believed in an embodied God; it was neo-Platonist influences that later turned Him into a disembodied Spirit. Divinization, narrowing the space between God and humans, was also part of Early Christian belief. St. Athanasius of Alexandria (Eastern Orthodox) wrote, regarding theosis, “The Son of God became man, that we might become God. ” . The Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) views the Trinity as three separate divine beings , in accord with the earliest Greek New Testament manuscripts.
• The Deity of Jesus Christ
Mormons hold firmly to the deity of Christ. For members of the Church of Jesus Christ (LDS), Jesus is not only the Son of God but also God the Son. Evangelical pollster George Barna found in 2001 that while only 33 percent of American Catholics, Lutherans, and Methodists (28 percent of Episcopalians) agreed that Jesus was “without sin”, 70 percent of Mormons believe Jesus was sinless. http://www.adherents.com/misc/BarnaPoll.html
• The Cross and Christ’s Atonement: .
The Cross became popular as a Christian symbol in the Fifth Century A.D. . Members of the Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) believe the proper Christian symbol is Christ’s resurrection , not his crucifixion on the Cross. Many Mormon chapels feature paintings of the resurrected Christ or His Second Coming. Furthermore, members of the church believe the major part of Christ’s atonement occurred in the Garden of Gethsemane as Christ took upon him the sins of all mankind.
• Definition of “Christian”: .
But Mormons don’t term Catholics and Protestants “non-Christian”. They believe Christ’s atonement applies to all mankind. The dictionary definition of a Christian is “of, pertaining to, believing in, or belonging to a religion based on the teachings of Jesus Christ”: All of the above denominations are followers of Christ, and consider him divine, and the Messiah foretold in the Old Testament. They all worship the one and only true God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and address Him in prayer as prescribed in The Lord’s Prayer.
It’s important to understand the difference between Reformation and Restoration when we consider who might be authentic Christians. . Early Christians had certain rituals which defined a Christian http://sacred-texts.com/chr/ecf/207/2070037.htm , which members of the Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) continue today. . If members of the Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) embrace early Christian theology, they are likely more “Christian” than their detractors.
• The Need for a Restoration of the Christian Church:
The founder of the Baptist Church in America, Roger Williams, just prior to leaving the church he established, said this:
“There is no regularly constituted church of Christ on earth, nor any person qualified to administer any church ordinances; nor can there be until new apostles are sent by the Great Head of the Church for whose coming I am seeking.” (Picturesque America, p. 502.)
Martin Luther had similar thoughts: “Nor can a Christian believer be forced beyond sacred Scriptures,…unless some new and proved revelation should be added; for we are forbidden by divine law to believe except what is proved either through the divine Scriptures or through Manifest revelation.”
He also wrote: “I have sought nothing beyond reforming the Church in conformity with the Holy Scriptures. The spiritual powers have been not only corrupted by sin, but absolutely destroyed; so that there is now nothing in them but a depraved reason and a will that is the enemy and opponent of God. I simply say that Christianity has ceased to exist among
those who should have preserved it.”
The Lutheran, Baptist and Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) churches recognize an apostasy from early Christianity. The Lutheran and Baptist churches have attempted reform, but Mormonism (and Roger Williams, and perhaps Martin Luther) require inspired restoration, so as to re-establish an unbroken line of authority and apostolic succession.
* * *
August 15th, 2007 at 5:53 pm
Terry…that last comment sounds a little canned, so I googled a phrase out of it, and sure enough, I found this same comment, or parts of it, by the same author (or at any rate, plagiarized by the same author) http://www.christianpost.com/article/20070731/28689_Faith_Pl aying_Big_Role_in_Presidential_Race_Amid_Evangelical_Shift.h tm, here, A HREF=”http://blog.acton.org/archives/1665-The-Civil-Religion -Test.html”>here, and about 150 other places.
August 15th, 2007 at 5:54 pm
Well, I didn’t succeed in planting links to all the sites, but google the phrase “The Cross became popular as a Christian symbol in the Fifth Century A.D.” and you’ll get about 158 hits. And they’re the same comments by the same guy.
August 15th, 2007 at 10:15 pm
My cousin went to help her mother-in-law, a mormon, living in Salt Lake City by “The Temple” (her husband had died and she needed some help moving). My cousin took her 7 year old daughter with her, they are both Roman Catholics. The day she arrived there, her brother-in-law came over, and he and his mother locked my cousin in a bedroom, with her daughter, and proceeded to try to kill her, in front of her daughter, with a meat cleaver. When the little girl asked her grandma why they were doing this, the grandma told her that her mother was the devil, and that she, her own granddaughter, would be next. Somehow my cousin was able to push the woman and her son out of the room, and she jumped through a window with her daughter. They were both bleeding and it was night time, so she ran through the Mormon neighborhood begging for help; people actually went inside and closed their doors in order to ignore her.
Eventually she was helped by a foreigner passing through the town, but my cousin’s little daughter has never recovered from the attack, which was prompted only because of my cousin’s catholicism. Mormons who really believe what their religion teaches, hate Catholics with all their might, and they don’t believe in freedom of religion, so although Romney might pander a bit to satisfy the voters, if he truly believes in what his religion teaches, he could be very, very bad for Christians in the US.
August 21st, 2007 at 10:05 am
Maria,
Your cousin’s experience sounds far-fetched. Please provide a link to a Utah newspaper reporting the attack.
Thanks,
Bot
December 27th, 2007 at 9:25 am
Aside from the cultish aspects of Mormonism, I’m more worried about the extent that the Mormon church is covertly backing Romney’s campaign, if it is. Romney seems too contrived and artificial. Also, he only seems to say what he thinks his audience wants to hear, evidenced by his constant flip-flopping on various issues. I would rather vote for Rudy or McCain, somebody who may have disagreements with some Republican stances, but nevertheless remains consistent with his own principles.