First “Courage”, and now this?
I thought homosexual inclination is not a sin?
It isn’t. The Church recognizes homosexual sex as disordered and sinful, yet the inclination itself is not sinful… however disordered. The Church does not ask the homosexual to change his orientation, simply to refrain from acting out - to remain chaste and avoid sin. In fact, the organization “Courage” was formed to help men and women to live chaste and celibate lives in accord with Church teaching.
Gay and Catholic bloggers.
There are several Catholic websites operated by Catholic persons with homosexual inclination - some in accord with Church teaching, others not so much - if at all. One faithful website is “Eve Tushnet”, I don’t read her or another popular site, “Dreadnought” mainly because I find them hard to read - much of the time I don’t know what they are talking about. However, once while reading Tushnet I happened upon a comment she made explaining that she doesn’t waste time trying to figure out why she is same sex attracted. I was surprised by that. Especially since self-knowledge is so fundamental to the developmental and maturation process of persons, not to mention that it (humility) is the foundation of an authentic spiritual life.
Perhaps I misunderstand the gay Catholics.
That said, I have always held the opinion that if a person seeking to leave the homosexual lifestyle continues to identify as “gay” this in fact keeps the person attached to the lifestyle. A great push is on for homosexuality to be considered natural, claiming a person is born gay - that it is a sort of “third way” or natural variant, and so on. Obviously taking that approach leaves the door open for approving same sex behaviors, ss dating, ss civil unions and marriage. In secular culture at least. However, when Catholics cling to a homosexual identity within the Church, it seems to me they may be unconsciously contributing to the same line of thought and thereby affecting Church teaching to some extent. (IMHO)
Fr. Harvey, one of the founders of Courage has always said that for some people (maybe most) a complete change of orientation is not possible - this might especially apply to older men and women who have lived a gay life for most of their lives, as well as some others. Yet chastity and celibacy, even in a same sex friendship is indeed possible. Truth be told, some highly motivated persons can and do change their sexual orientation, even though the Church does not require them to do so.
I came across this information in my reserch on the subject, and more recently while researching “defensive detachment”. Dr. Nicolosi has pioneered the studies in this field, and although I’ve not read his work before, I came across a very enlightening interview, especially as it considers the origins of homosexuality in some persons. I’ll post excerpts here:
Interview:
The Good News: What is homosexuality and how do you define it?
Joseph Nicolosi:Homosexuality is a developmental disorder. It has nothing to do with sex. It’s really the person’s search for belonging, what we call the three “As” attention, affection and approval. These are the normal, emotional affectional needs, which have been sexualized.
GN: In your book Reparative Therapy of Male Homosexuality, you use the expression “non-gay homosexual.” What exactly is meant by that?
JN: Well, we make a distinction between homosexual and gay. Unfortunately, too many people think they’re synonymous and that’s due to the success of the gay activists who have sold people on the idea that to be homosexual means they’re automatically gay.
But there is a population we’re concerned with, in particular, whom we call the non-gay homosexual, which is to say they have same-sex attractions, they have same-sex feelings, and they even engage in same-sex behavior, but they do not identify with the gay sociopolitical identity. They see themselves as having heterosexual values and want to live a heterosexual life.
GN: Is it possible to change from homosexual to heterosexual?
JN: Yes. There are many studies that show many men and women do come out of homosexuality. We see more and more of the evidence, more and more of those studies; and if the person is highly motivated there is a very good chance that he or she can come out of homosexuality.
GN: How do you help someone who wants to change?
JN:They have to begin to understand the origins of their homosexuality. It’s not about sex. These are emotional needs, and in therapy you direct the client to address these emotional needs. These needs usually go back to the father - not having enough of the father’s love, enough of the father’s affirmation, and they begin to get these needs met in more authentic ways, ways that really transform a person rather than the sexual, which is a kind of repetitive and nonproductive attempt at meeting those emotional needs. - Hope For Homosexuals
Makes sense to me. I also find it interesting that Nicolosi states that homosexuality has nothing to do with sex (obviously it does superficially); his statement reminds me of what experts say about rape - that it has nothing to do with sex, but rather power and the humiliation of the victim.
Art: The Rape of Ganymede
July 21st, 2008 at 10:09 am
Isn’t there something about 4 stages that a mature adult must go through ,and that many folks never reach stage 4 of self knowledge or personal introspection. They sort of have retarded growth.
Isn’t it a sin to simply desire another person in a sexual way? Did Christ not tell us that if we have sinned in our hearts with another then we so much have done it?? So is it really okay for them to dwell on it. I try to avoid the things that make me sin ,but sadly I am continually drawn to what destroys me.
For all of you manly men like Terry ,Leo, and dough boy I thought you would enjoy this site… Arrr!
http://artofmanliness.com/
I bought my little boy a swiss army knife . Oh he is in heaven. Although if he gets hurt with it ,SRS is gonna have a field day with me..
I say Women stop raising little boys to be like girls! Let then BE boys!!
July 21st, 2008 at 10:15 am
Terry, you are correct. Your boss had this to say
“The homosexual inclination is however “objectively disordered” and homosexual practices are “sins gravely contrary to chastity”.”
Disordered but not sinful, that makes one feel cozy. Ratzinger also wrote that there is no discrimination issue, since ‘chaste’ gays won’t come out anyway. And those who do come out, obviously only got themselves to blame. As he writes that ‘irrational and violence reactions’ will increase when gays seek their rights. So, return to the back of the bus plsokthx.
Well, what can I tell ya, equality will come, by any means necessary.
And…NARTH ? Geez, not even the Catholic church believes one can be ‘turned’. What’s next ? Creationists on evolution ?
July 21st, 2008 at 10:16 am
More importiantly, give your boys the gift of holy Dads to look up to !!! AND WAIT till you find one that is!!
July 21st, 2008 at 1:46 pm
Hmmm, Terry I did warn you that the PC police would get after you, Hate Male and all.
July 21st, 2008 at 1:49 pm
” … Well, what can I tell ya, equality will come, by any means necessary…” -Gerald
ominous statement … “by any means necessary”.
wow … thanks Gerald for being so kind and sharing this information. Perhaps you can give some examples of the “means”.
July 21st, 2008 at 1:58 pm
Belinda; sin requires grave matter, full advertence and full consent of the will to be mortal sin. The passions, being disordered (yes even in straight people) as a result of original sin respond apart from the act of the will- in his case SSA, but in others a desire to overeat, have sex with someone else’s wife, steal money, strangle someone, etc. It is when the will enters the picture and a decision is made to act on this that the sin comes in. If the sin remains only in thought - fantasizing about strangling someone who has tee’d you off - the sin is because you have assented to the impulse and started planning. before the assent there is no sin. Then if you actually strangle someone who has tee’d you off then you have consented and acted out on the sin. If this is done with premeditation and full knowldge and intent to harm then the sin is mortal. So the desire to kill someone in an act of passion is also “disordered”. Unfortunately most people when commenting on Catholic moral theology don’t know what the proper use and connotation of disordered means when applied to passions and desires.
The gays however have decided to equate the term disordered with degenerate and so accuse the Church of calling them something akin to that, but this is the use of the press to bear false witness against the Church.
July 21st, 2008 at 2:00 pm
Leorufus - I know - which is why I decided to post this.
July 21st, 2008 at 2:30 pm
Bravo, Terry.
July 21st, 2008 at 5:07 pm
Hey TERRY !! My brother whom I have mentioned before (he is not Catholic yet) has had such a personal transformation in his life that now his co-workers want to know what has happened to him. He has another woman at work getting ready to go to confession ,and discover the Peace, The Prince of Peace, for herself. She isn’t Catholic either.
My brothers Priest kept laughing while my brother talked to him. My brother said why are you laughing? The Priest responded by saying that he could not hardly believe how my brother has been transformed, he tried to expain that my brother had been given so much Grace,yet he can’t see it . I am crying for joy. Hey look at my facebook page and see the picture of my brother BEFORE, and his family. It creeps me out. Belinda Willy
July 21st, 2008 at 5:12 pm
Thank you Leo for making that clear to me. You post was enriching and engaging. Remember I am a struggling convert~
July 21st, 2008 at 6:03 pm
Hey, my wife likes guns, too. She watches Ice Road Truckers and such
Once your son is grown up, get him a Zero Tolerance knife. It’s 300 bucks, but I can shave with it
July 21st, 2008 at 7:19 pm
Belinda, my wife is a convert too, welcome to the Church!
July 21st, 2008 at 7:29 pm
Terry: this is an interesting point you made
“homosexuality has nothing to do with sex (obviously it does superficially); his statement reminds me of what experts say about rape - that it has nothing to do with sex, but rather power and the humiliation of the victim.”
In many ways perhaps a lot of sexual expression has to do with a desire for something else - for a prostitute it really isn’t about the sex, it is about money, and so on.
Very interesting to think about, and why the matrimonial state is the only legitimate and rightly ordered (as opposed to disordered) context for sexual expression because in this case it is about mutual giving with the possibility of bringing forth life.
July 21st, 2008 at 7:45 pm
Way cool Gerald ! I bought some pocket knives ,and
when my boy saw them he had a fit, girls can’t have those I need those he told my husband .My husband told him yes your Mom ,and sisters can have this stuff ,but we men must supervise the women while they use them. WHAT !!